Christians (and especially pastors), PLEASE stop telling young, immature men with a lack of self-control just to go out there, “find a godly gal” (anyone will do) and get married. Wives are not the ready-made solution to those men’s immaturity. They are not an off-the-shelf remedy for those men’s lust.
I have definitely seen young men and young women marry because it elevates their status in the church. (I grew up in an environment strongly influenced by Biblical Patriarchy and Doug Wilson). Often the ladies of the church took little notice of me other than my marital status (or lack thereof). I have several unmarried friends who are in their 30s of great maturity and excellent character who simply outclass all the men. I don’t think a wise man wants a woman who “just wants to get married” and no wise woman I know wants a man who “just” wants a wife to make babies. These attitudes instrumentalise one another and are no foundation for a godly partnership. Marriage and parenthood in many ways exacerbate immaturity, not resolve it. And if you don’t accept input before you’re married (or only choose to follow unwise counsel), you’ll likely do the same afterwards. (I’m watching that happen now with a couple friends). Parents can be especially defensive in this way. (Ask me how I know 😏)
I’ve seen women run after unbelievers because they simply want a man. I know a woman who was encouraged by her church leadership to marry a man with a criminal record. I’ve seen women wrestle with their desires and God’s goodness and emerge with a maturity and settled identity —while we assume that the man has all the agency and so he doesn’t wrestle with these things. I would like us to do a better job of the discipling the men rather than asking to women to be less than they are.
Hey Dani, thanks for this. You make some really insightful and important observations.
You do criticise DeYoung for both (1) blaming men and removing agency from women and (2) calling women the problem, and I think this reflects a slight misunderstanding.
I think DeYoung (right or wrong) is consistent in identifying immature men as the problem. The reason his framework (right or wrong) doesn't include much talk of female agency seems to be that he is convinced that it is men who are primarily responsible for the "problem", because they are misusing their agency. Basically, I think you're right about #1 and #3 in your article, but not #2.
Thanks again for sharing your perspective on this. I think you've highlighted a bunch of serious issues.
Hi Eliot - thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts :) I appreciate it!
I actually think we may not be in much disagreement here on the point you've noted. I think DeYoung says it is a "problem" when too many (however many that is!) unmarried Christian singles who want to be married aren't or can't. The statistical data is that women form the majority of this group. So by implication there are a large number of single women whose situation is a problem in and for the church. But, yes, I agree with you that he is"squarely" blaming men that this problem exists. He identifies them as the problem.
However, my argument is that in claiming these men are "forcing countless numbers of young women" into a situation they don't want he is *indirectly* removing - or at the very least, not factoring in - female agency from the equation.
For example, many women have said no to dating or marrying men who have asked (for good or bad reasons!). Many women have chosen not to continue in a relationship with a man (for good or bad reasons). All women have their own sinful and sanctified patterns of thinking and behaving which also contribute to the situation in which they find themselves.
So it seems to me he does regard too many single women as a problematic reality (which, to the individual woman communicates that she is a problem) while also rendering them as passive participants whose situation is only acted upon. by men, rather than something they also act into. Hope that clarifies!
I see now what you meant by female agency – not just agency to pursue maturity as a potential wife, but also agency to pursue celibacy, to reject a potential partner, etc.
In fact, it's possible my original comment's assumptions implicitly proved some of your general commentary about the way we think about singleness in the Church 😬
That's such an important distinction, as it can be dangerous to teach or imply that women have no agency in this area. When I was in my 20s, I was on the receiving end of a considerable amount of unpleasant behaviour from single Christian men in church, who had absorbed the notion that all single women were desperate to get married to the first man who asked them, and that therefore, a man had only to make a decision to marry to be accepted - as you can imagine, any refusal to comply with their decisions was not well received. It's one of the reasons church was the place I felt least safe as a single woman.
In my teens and 20s, I grew up in a church which put tremendous pressure on single girls to marry immature young men in the belief that this would make the guys develop spiritual maturity and leadership skills. (Naturally enough, this mostly ended in disaster a few years down the line)
Nobody ever seemed to find it odd that they were assuming a young man with Jesus in his life couldn't become spiritually mature, but a young man with Jesus + a wife could be... Since when has Jesus needed anyone else's help to grow us in maturity?!!
And is anyone else concerned by the advice to the young man to talk to the girl's PARENTS and then marry her...if she's too immature to make up her own mind, then she's too immature for marriage.
I appreciate this post because as a single woman, I would agree with Kevin DeYoung's statement at first glance. But your response addresses misgivings I have bubbling beneath the surface. It helps me see that I have a role in the church and in my own life. I am thankful for you engaging with this more deeply with scripture on this and showing others (me) how to do it too
First off I'm going to assume that if you had a concern about the theology of a paster as prominent as Kevin Deyoung you have already contacted him (and hopefully his church's session) about this "theologically troubling" excerpt. Since you have almost surely done this I'm sure you don't need to hear from me why your concerns are wrong. But for the sake of the others reading this article who have not received helpful insight from Kevin and the Christ Covenant elders I will take a stab at what I think Kevin would say.
Let's begin with the problem of overabundance. You do ask a good question, "Who can tell when many single Christians become too many single Christians?!" Well I'll tell you how he knows it is an overabundance. If we look at Revelation 19:9, "And the Angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."And he said to me, "These are the true words of God." The marriage here refers to the marriage between Jesus and the Church. This is the great hope of the church, and it is the reason for marriage. Christians earthly marriages point to that marriage. So this is a way of bearing light to the world. Now, Isaiah 62:5, "For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you." Similar imagery to the Revelation text. We have rejoicing, we have God's people as the bride, and God himself as the groom. It's a very rich passage but I would like to focus on that first line. "As a young man marries a young woman", why doesn't Isaiah just say man, and just say woman? There is a special emphasis on being married young. So the issue in our current age is that young men are sinning, are unwilling to mature, unwilling to be decisive, and unwilling to be committed. Kevin isn't saying that we need to force young men to marry, he's saying we need to help young men to be decisive, and to be committed, and as a result of being decisive and being committed, they will become mature. The issue is not that God no desires for young people to imitate the great marriage but that young men refuse to be married.
The second paragraph is unfair to Kevin, his general statement that most young woman have less interest in going to collage and working than getting in married is a very fair generalization to make, and in no way an objectification of women. Sure there are outliers, but I would wholeheartedly agree that i my experience young women want to get married and raise kids, not work full time in a corporate office. She's not "nowhere" she's not a "ghost" in this paragraph, she's just ready to marry and the men aren't. The men get more attention here because the men are being the problem. Not because she's an object.
Here we have the first of the third paragraphs. 1 Corinthians 7 dismantles your first few paragraphs so I'd encourage you to just go read that, if you want more on this topic I'd point you to here-https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/will-marriage-cure-my-lust. I'll never be able to handle this topic as well as Piper does.
Second of the third paragraphs. "The Problem That Isn’t Recognised". Kevin is finite, he isn't going to over every topic in a short paragraph. This paragraph is directed to men, you didn't attach the post but I suspect it is directed to men. This book is not a replacement for the book, the bible. The bible does address marrying with the nations. It has strong warning against this, I can't see how a woman could read this and then think "gosh I need to go marry a pagan".
I appreciate the tone of this article, I really would encourage you to email Kevin Deyoung if you haven't. Overall I think you missed what Kevin was saying and am sad that you wrote an article what took his words out of context.
I am a Coastal feminist Christian, who probably disagrees with you, John Doe- and Kevin DeYoung on most things generally-
And yet, I’m just chiming in to say I completely agree with this take. This post feels like such a stretch against a strawman.
I mean, I will absolutely name there’s something in Kevin’s language that I really don’t like. The idea of just ‘find a gal’- lol. It feels cringe to me. But – I think his underlying message, if it had been more sensitively stated, is right on.
And to shift the centering… I agree with this author that we don’t have an over abundance of singleness. But, I agree w DeYoung that we DO have an over abundance of immature, young men. and yes. Marriage is one of the greatest ways that most humans – not all – not Jesus, not the apostle Paul – not so many other beautiful and inspiring people – but still, most humans. . .learn to grow in Godliness .
In my Wesleyan framework, I think of it as a sort of common grace – yes I know it’s a covenant and that Wesley probably wouldn’t actually say it was a common Grace – but my point is, it’s just a good thing . It helps a lot of people. But that grace is being limited by the immaturity of young men who don’t know a good thing when it’s available for them .
Marriage is immensely hard. Immensely. And yet it is, I believe, meant to be more widely available to women. (and yes – I said available. Because most women —even more liberal ones like myself -don’t want a man they had to chase and hound into commitment.)
These ideas can be strange, for sure. If you lack the desire to marry, that's fine. Jesus said that people like that existed. And Paul even recommended it, although he admitted that not everyone is like that.
Sometimes, as Christians, and perhaps more so as older, married Christians, we can assume, perhaps unconsciously, that marriage is the norm and "just the way things are." Or "the way God ordained it." We can all slip into patterns of thinking like this, but we should always check what the Bible says. Where in the Gospels or the epistles did Jesus or Paul pressure people to marry? Their teachings were rather nuanced, weren't they?
It's also easy to blame men, for sure, as this DeYoung book excerpt does (I haven't read the book, either). Note how DeYoung writes that male "immaturity, passivity, and indecision" is "forcing" women to delay marriage. Is it now? Interesting.
I find this practice rather fascinating, actually. As a man, I don't want to play victim here. But I do think it's ineffective. When we just blame "the men," well, we're not giving women any moral agency, are we? And besides, every man needs to become "a better man." Including me. Including the brave men who say these sorts of things.
The basic message from the church leadership is often that, if men were good enough then women would be too. Isn't that sexist? As a thought experiment, consider the times that your church has taught Ephesians 5. Where is the emphasis, usually? On men or women?
A lot of times, when talking about men in sermons, we talk about sexual sin. The idea is often that men just want sex and women are the “victims." But women are, obviously, also having sex. How do I know? Because men are. It takes two to tango so to speak. Amazingly, women also sin. Who knew?
On a related note, church teachers sometimes seem so concerned with women’s self esteem in the church, it’s insane. The constant drumbeat of "you are precious, you are a prize to be won, you are to be pursued, you are a princess in the Kingdom, waiting for your prince, you are the pearl of great price, " and on and on. "Someday there might be a man good enough for you!"
Back to another point, it seems like "blaming the men" is pretty easy to do in church. If you preach that in a sermon, you can get applause and amens from both sides. The women appreciate you standing up for them. And, of course, the brave preacher is never one of these "bad men."
Note, of course, that women who teach about the Bible never, or rarely, call out women this way. How many sermons have you ever heard about women's sin, versus men's sin?
I'm sure the average man sitting in the pews is a decent guy. Obviously, I don't know everyone's story. But neither does the preacher teaching these things. Have any of these preachers actually SEEN men doing any of these things that they are talking about? If so, well, why not be the "real" hero and confront them in person? You could do it from the pulpit, of course. Which may not help. It may also embarrass the men in church who women don't date (lots of those, I'm sure) It's also kind of disrespectful to make generalizations like that.
Of course, it’s way easier to go post about it (or give a sermon) than it is to take the time to challenge these men directly. Or they don’t actually personally KNOW men doing this, they just want to call out the “bad” men who are out there, somewhere, presumably, doing it.
If these "better men" are single, well, this line of virtue signaling probably won't make them more attractive to women. And, for the most part, none of their advice will make a single man more attractive, either. There's lots of Christian men who meet these standards who aren't married. How can this be if that is what these women are looking for?
it also has an effect on people. When a man says he can’t meet a Christian woman what do you think vs. what you think if a woman says the same thing? What’s the first thing you think when you meet a divorced woman vs man? When you see an unwed mother, whose fault is it? When a woman can’t get a date vs. when a man can’t?
I'm not saying go the other extreme and blame all the women. But I do appreciate nuance.
(1) in most cultures, marriage is a “rite of passage” to social adulthood. Not that there is not a role for unmarried adults, but they are considered unusual
(2) in ancient Israel, children were the means by which a person, through their family, was established in the inheritance of God. In contrast, the prophets look forward to a time when the eunuch fully shares in the inheritance (not “a dry tree”)
(3) while wealth & status have always been honoured by society, there’s a strong message in modern culture that we should not let things like marriage & family distract from our seeking wealth & status. Even to seeing any hint that a person (especially a woman) might prefer to orient themselves around family as evidence of “oppression”. The consequence is a lot of confusion around marriage and children as a cultural role
(4) the role of the community in raising families is seen as being exercised by the state rather than extended family & neighbours
(5) Even in the church, let alone outside it, we do very little to explicitly train & support young men & women to be fathers or mothers, neither before or after. Parenthood is high status only if you can carry it out without getting in the way of real work. Then we are frustrated when men delay it and the women who are drawn to it feel demoralised
What can be done?
The church needs to be counter-cultural, and default to seeing building community - especially in the form of families (deliberately plural) - as a high calling. In practice, not just lip service
By focusing on a community of families, we create space & roles for those who are not actual parents, as well as building cross-generational support in multiple directions
The ambivalence between marriage being culturally normative while affirming roles both inside & outside is good. We need to exalt temporal marriage & family while recognising that it only foreshadows the kingdom of heaven, and thus the parents of a dozen & the eunuch can both be fully blessed by God
There is a small subset of Christian single men who I would encourage to more actively seek out marriage: men who are faithful followers of Christ with good stability in their lives and no opposition to marriage, but simply aren’t taking an active approach to looking because they’re pretty much ok with how their lives are now. I would encourage them to open themselves up to the possibility that maybe God intends a greater goodness in marriage. But I would never push it as a command, and I would never give such advice to all men. And like you said, there is a basic demographic problem: more women attend church than men. When I look at my own circle of faithful Christian friends, there just aren’t many single men fitting the situation I mentioned. Those inclined toward marriage tend to find spouses early because the odds are in their favor. I am of course generalizing - every person is unique. But as for DeYoung, this is part and parcel of his thinking. He believes marriage and having lots of children is how we need to be counter cultural and therefore win people to Christ.
"Wives are not the ready-made solution to those men’s immaturity. They are not an off-the-shelf remedy for those men’s lust." 🔥
Such an excellent piece!
You are a breath of fresh air, Dani.
Those who know me best would say not always! But thank you Caleb :)
I have definitely seen young men and young women marry because it elevates their status in the church. (I grew up in an environment strongly influenced by Biblical Patriarchy and Doug Wilson). Often the ladies of the church took little notice of me other than my marital status (or lack thereof). I have several unmarried friends who are in their 30s of great maturity and excellent character who simply outclass all the men. I don’t think a wise man wants a woman who “just wants to get married” and no wise woman I know wants a man who “just” wants a wife to make babies. These attitudes instrumentalise one another and are no foundation for a godly partnership. Marriage and parenthood in many ways exacerbate immaturity, not resolve it. And if you don’t accept input before you’re married (or only choose to follow unwise counsel), you’ll likely do the same afterwards. (I’m watching that happen now with a couple friends). Parents can be especially defensive in this way. (Ask me how I know 😏)
I’ve seen women run after unbelievers because they simply want a man. I know a woman who was encouraged by her church leadership to marry a man with a criminal record. I’ve seen women wrestle with their desires and God’s goodness and emerge with a maturity and settled identity —while we assume that the man has all the agency and so he doesn’t wrestle with these things. I would like us to do a better job of the discipling the men rather than asking to women to be less than they are.
Thank you for pushing back on rhetoric and thinking like this. It’s so pervasive and exhausting. I appreciate your voice so much.
Hey Dani, thanks for this. You make some really insightful and important observations.
You do criticise DeYoung for both (1) blaming men and removing agency from women and (2) calling women the problem, and I think this reflects a slight misunderstanding.
I think DeYoung (right or wrong) is consistent in identifying immature men as the problem. The reason his framework (right or wrong) doesn't include much talk of female agency seems to be that he is convinced that it is men who are primarily responsible for the "problem", because they are misusing their agency. Basically, I think you're right about #1 and #3 in your article, but not #2.
Thanks again for sharing your perspective on this. I think you've highlighted a bunch of serious issues.
Hi Eliot - thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts :) I appreciate it!
I actually think we may not be in much disagreement here on the point you've noted. I think DeYoung says it is a "problem" when too many (however many that is!) unmarried Christian singles who want to be married aren't or can't. The statistical data is that women form the majority of this group. So by implication there are a large number of single women whose situation is a problem in and for the church. But, yes, I agree with you that he is"squarely" blaming men that this problem exists. He identifies them as the problem.
However, my argument is that in claiming these men are "forcing countless numbers of young women" into a situation they don't want he is *indirectly* removing - or at the very least, not factoring in - female agency from the equation.
For example, many women have said no to dating or marrying men who have asked (for good or bad reasons!). Many women have chosen not to continue in a relationship with a man (for good or bad reasons). All women have their own sinful and sanctified patterns of thinking and behaving which also contribute to the situation in which they find themselves.
So it seems to me he does regard too many single women as a problematic reality (which, to the individual woman communicates that she is a problem) while also rendering them as passive participants whose situation is only acted upon. by men, rather than something they also act into. Hope that clarifies!
Thanks so much for that clarification, Dani.
I see now what you meant by female agency – not just agency to pursue maturity as a potential wife, but also agency to pursue celibacy, to reject a potential partner, etc.
In fact, it's possible my original comment's assumptions implicitly proved some of your general commentary about the way we think about singleness in the Church 😬
That's such an important distinction, as it can be dangerous to teach or imply that women have no agency in this area. When I was in my 20s, I was on the receiving end of a considerable amount of unpleasant behaviour from single Christian men in church, who had absorbed the notion that all single women were desperate to get married to the first man who asked them, and that therefore, a man had only to make a decision to marry to be accepted - as you can imagine, any refusal to comply with their decisions was not well received. It's one of the reasons church was the place I felt least safe as a single woman.
Thanks as always.
I read this book a few years ago. I almost forgot about this section. I am partly alarmed that I glossed over it! You are spot on in your response!
In my teens and 20s, I grew up in a church which put tremendous pressure on single girls to marry immature young men in the belief that this would make the guys develop spiritual maturity and leadership skills. (Naturally enough, this mostly ended in disaster a few years down the line)
Nobody ever seemed to find it odd that they were assuming a young man with Jesus in his life couldn't become spiritually mature, but a young man with Jesus + a wife could be... Since when has Jesus needed anyone else's help to grow us in maturity?!!
And is anyone else concerned by the advice to the young man to talk to the girl's PARENTS and then marry her...if she's too immature to make up her own mind, then she's too immature for marriage.
I appreciate this post because as a single woman, I would agree with Kevin DeYoung's statement at first glance. But your response addresses misgivings I have bubbling beneath the surface. It helps me see that I have a role in the church and in my own life. I am thankful for you engaging with this more deeply with scripture on this and showing others (me) how to do it too
Excellent!
First off I'm going to assume that if you had a concern about the theology of a paster as prominent as Kevin Deyoung you have already contacted him (and hopefully his church's session) about this "theologically troubling" excerpt. Since you have almost surely done this I'm sure you don't need to hear from me why your concerns are wrong. But for the sake of the others reading this article who have not received helpful insight from Kevin and the Christ Covenant elders I will take a stab at what I think Kevin would say.
Let's begin with the problem of overabundance. You do ask a good question, "Who can tell when many single Christians become too many single Christians?!" Well I'll tell you how he knows it is an overabundance. If we look at Revelation 19:9, "And the Angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."And he said to me, "These are the true words of God." The marriage here refers to the marriage between Jesus and the Church. This is the great hope of the church, and it is the reason for marriage. Christians earthly marriages point to that marriage. So this is a way of bearing light to the world. Now, Isaiah 62:5, "For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you." Similar imagery to the Revelation text. We have rejoicing, we have God's people as the bride, and God himself as the groom. It's a very rich passage but I would like to focus on that first line. "As a young man marries a young woman", why doesn't Isaiah just say man, and just say woman? There is a special emphasis on being married young. So the issue in our current age is that young men are sinning, are unwilling to mature, unwilling to be decisive, and unwilling to be committed. Kevin isn't saying that we need to force young men to marry, he's saying we need to help young men to be decisive, and to be committed, and as a result of being decisive and being committed, they will become mature. The issue is not that God no desires for young people to imitate the great marriage but that young men refuse to be married.
The second paragraph is unfair to Kevin, his general statement that most young woman have less interest in going to collage and working than getting in married is a very fair generalization to make, and in no way an objectification of women. Sure there are outliers, but I would wholeheartedly agree that i my experience young women want to get married and raise kids, not work full time in a corporate office. She's not "nowhere" she's not a "ghost" in this paragraph, she's just ready to marry and the men aren't. The men get more attention here because the men are being the problem. Not because she's an object.
Here we have the first of the third paragraphs. 1 Corinthians 7 dismantles your first few paragraphs so I'd encourage you to just go read that, if you want more on this topic I'd point you to here-https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/will-marriage-cure-my-lust. I'll never be able to handle this topic as well as Piper does.
Second of the third paragraphs. "The Problem That Isn’t Recognised". Kevin is finite, he isn't going to over every topic in a short paragraph. This paragraph is directed to men, you didn't attach the post but I suspect it is directed to men. This book is not a replacement for the book, the bible. The bible does address marrying with the nations. It has strong warning against this, I can't see how a woman could read this and then think "gosh I need to go marry a pagan".
I appreciate the tone of this article, I really would encourage you to email Kevin Deyoung if you haven't. Overall I think you missed what Kevin was saying and am sad that you wrote an article what took his words out of context.
I am a Coastal feminist Christian, who probably disagrees with you, John Doe- and Kevin DeYoung on most things generally-
And yet, I’m just chiming in to say I completely agree with this take. This post feels like such a stretch against a strawman.
I mean, I will absolutely name there’s something in Kevin’s language that I really don’t like. The idea of just ‘find a gal’- lol. It feels cringe to me. But – I think his underlying message, if it had been more sensitively stated, is right on.
And to shift the centering… I agree with this author that we don’t have an over abundance of singleness. But, I agree w DeYoung that we DO have an over abundance of immature, young men. and yes. Marriage is one of the greatest ways that most humans – not all – not Jesus, not the apostle Paul – not so many other beautiful and inspiring people – but still, most humans. . .learn to grow in Godliness .
In my Wesleyan framework, I think of it as a sort of common grace – yes I know it’s a covenant and that Wesley probably wouldn’t actually say it was a common Grace – but my point is, it’s just a good thing . It helps a lot of people. But that grace is being limited by the immaturity of young men who don’t know a good thing when it’s available for them .
Marriage is immensely hard. Immensely. And yet it is, I believe, meant to be more widely available to women. (and yes – I said available. Because most women —even more liberal ones like myself -don’t want a man they had to chase and hound into commitment.)
These ideas can be strange, for sure. If you lack the desire to marry, that's fine. Jesus said that people like that existed. And Paul even recommended it, although he admitted that not everyone is like that.
Sometimes, as Christians, and perhaps more so as older, married Christians, we can assume, perhaps unconsciously, that marriage is the norm and "just the way things are." Or "the way God ordained it." We can all slip into patterns of thinking like this, but we should always check what the Bible says. Where in the Gospels or the epistles did Jesus or Paul pressure people to marry? Their teachings were rather nuanced, weren't they?
It's also easy to blame men, for sure, as this DeYoung book excerpt does (I haven't read the book, either). Note how DeYoung writes that male "immaturity, passivity, and indecision" is "forcing" women to delay marriage. Is it now? Interesting.
I find this practice rather fascinating, actually. As a man, I don't want to play victim here. But I do think it's ineffective. When we just blame "the men," well, we're not giving women any moral agency, are we? And besides, every man needs to become "a better man." Including me. Including the brave men who say these sorts of things.
The basic message from the church leadership is often that, if men were good enough then women would be too. Isn't that sexist? As a thought experiment, consider the times that your church has taught Ephesians 5. Where is the emphasis, usually? On men or women?
A lot of times, when talking about men in sermons, we talk about sexual sin. The idea is often that men just want sex and women are the “victims." But women are, obviously, also having sex. How do I know? Because men are. It takes two to tango so to speak. Amazingly, women also sin. Who knew?
On a related note, church teachers sometimes seem so concerned with women’s self esteem in the church, it’s insane. The constant drumbeat of "you are precious, you are a prize to be won, you are to be pursued, you are a princess in the Kingdom, waiting for your prince, you are the pearl of great price, " and on and on. "Someday there might be a man good enough for you!"
Back to another point, it seems like "blaming the men" is pretty easy to do in church. If you preach that in a sermon, you can get applause and amens from both sides. The women appreciate you standing up for them. And, of course, the brave preacher is never one of these "bad men."
Note, of course, that women who teach about the Bible never, or rarely, call out women this way. How many sermons have you ever heard about women's sin, versus men's sin?
I'm sure the average man sitting in the pews is a decent guy. Obviously, I don't know everyone's story. But neither does the preacher teaching these things. Have any of these preachers actually SEEN men doing any of these things that they are talking about? If so, well, why not be the "real" hero and confront them in person? You could do it from the pulpit, of course. Which may not help. It may also embarrass the men in church who women don't date (lots of those, I'm sure) It's also kind of disrespectful to make generalizations like that.
Of course, it’s way easier to go post about it (or give a sermon) than it is to take the time to challenge these men directly. Or they don’t actually personally KNOW men doing this, they just want to call out the “bad” men who are out there, somewhere, presumably, doing it.
If these "better men" are single, well, this line of virtue signaling probably won't make them more attractive to women. And, for the most part, none of their advice will make a single man more attractive, either. There's lots of Christian men who meet these standards who aren't married. How can this be if that is what these women are looking for?
it also has an effect on people. When a man says he can’t meet a Christian woman what do you think vs. what you think if a woman says the same thing? What’s the first thing you think when you meet a divorced woman vs man? When you see an unwed mother, whose fault is it? When a woman can’t get a date vs. when a man can’t?
I'm not saying go the other extreme and blame all the women. But I do appreciate nuance.
Complex issue
(1) in most cultures, marriage is a “rite of passage” to social adulthood. Not that there is not a role for unmarried adults, but they are considered unusual
(2) in ancient Israel, children were the means by which a person, through their family, was established in the inheritance of God. In contrast, the prophets look forward to a time when the eunuch fully shares in the inheritance (not “a dry tree”)
(3) while wealth & status have always been honoured by society, there’s a strong message in modern culture that we should not let things like marriage & family distract from our seeking wealth & status. Even to seeing any hint that a person (especially a woman) might prefer to orient themselves around family as evidence of “oppression”. The consequence is a lot of confusion around marriage and children as a cultural role
(4) the role of the community in raising families is seen as being exercised by the state rather than extended family & neighbours
(5) Even in the church, let alone outside it, we do very little to explicitly train & support young men & women to be fathers or mothers, neither before or after. Parenthood is high status only if you can carry it out without getting in the way of real work. Then we are frustrated when men delay it and the women who are drawn to it feel demoralised
What can be done?
The church needs to be counter-cultural, and default to seeing building community - especially in the form of families (deliberately plural) - as a high calling. In practice, not just lip service
By focusing on a community of families, we create space & roles for those who are not actual parents, as well as building cross-generational support in multiple directions
The ambivalence between marriage being culturally normative while affirming roles both inside & outside is good. We need to exalt temporal marriage & family while recognising that it only foreshadows the kingdom of heaven, and thus the parents of a dozen & the eunuch can both be fully blessed by God
YES. Thank you for saying this!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
There is a small subset of Christian single men who I would encourage to more actively seek out marriage: men who are faithful followers of Christ with good stability in their lives and no opposition to marriage, but simply aren’t taking an active approach to looking because they’re pretty much ok with how their lives are now. I would encourage them to open themselves up to the possibility that maybe God intends a greater goodness in marriage. But I would never push it as a command, and I would never give such advice to all men. And like you said, there is a basic demographic problem: more women attend church than men. When I look at my own circle of faithful Christian friends, there just aren’t many single men fitting the situation I mentioned. Those inclined toward marriage tend to find spouses early because the odds are in their favor. I am of course generalizing - every person is unique. But as for DeYoung, this is part and parcel of his thinking. He believes marriage and having lots of children is how we need to be counter cultural and therefore win people to Christ.
It is easy: DeYoung is TGC. TGC is bad (see from @21:40 here: https://youtu.be/pbUK5SOQ5sM?si=ONddXmIttFvY4aan&t=1302). Therefore, DeYoung book is bad.